Holley Projection 4 Manual
. Pro-Jection 2D.If this is your first visit, be sure tocheck out the by clicking thelink above. You may have tobefore you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages,select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.Please be aware that this is a community forum. Although Holley employees will take part in answering questions from time to time, your questions may or may not be answered by Holley personnel.
Holley Projection Kit
Thus, Holley can not guarantee an answer or timing on an answer. I recently installed a older model Pro-Jection 2D kit, second generation I believe. I've got it tuned pretty well, but after driving 5 or 6 miles, the engine will completely shut off. It happens sporadically. When it happens the RPM gauge seems to drop first. Not sure if I'm loosing a tach signal, or if I have a voltage issue. When it dies, the battery seems weak.
It will not start right back up, it needs to set for a good 5 minutes, and then it will restart and run fine for a bit. I checked all wiring connections and they're good. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks for the help!
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The Holley Pro-jection unit (John De Armond)Date: Fri Aug 9 00:To: (z-car list)Subject:My Holly TBI fuel injection finally arrived today from Summit. Theyhad backordered it (translate: They don't stock it and have to haveit drop-shipped.)The first impression is that they paid more attention to the packagingthan they did the unit.
The packaging is top-drawer with separatecompartments for each component and the injector assembly in its ownnaccel. They should have put the effort into the product.
The fit andfinish is typical of what we've come to expect from American companiesand illustrates why the Japanese own the manufacturing segment of oureconomy. Very little of the die casting flash was trimmed. One hunk offlash blocked the throttle from fully opening. Apparent design changeswere accomplished by drilling random holes through casting bosses obviouslymeant for something else.
Several VERY thin metal membranes were removedthat were left from the intersection of 2 machined passages. These wouldhave eventually cracked off and entered the engine.
A couple of hours with adie grinder and some fine burrs cleaned things up but I should.NOT. haveto do this.The control box is all analog and is the ultimate in simplicity. It'sinputs are throttle position from a pot, water jacket temperature anda tach signal.
There are adjustments on the box for idle, midrange, WOT,'choke' and acceleration enrichment. The 'choke' pot really does nothingregarding enriching the mixture and instead sets a temperature setpointfor dropping the fast idle. Which brings up an interesting 'feature'.The throttle body contains a standard high idle solonoid that jacks upthe idle speed when the engine is cold. What it does NOT do is jack upthe idle when the air conditioner turns on.
The manual makes special notethat the control unit does not support that mode of operation which isstupid. 2 diodes and the solonoid can be triggered by either the controlbox or the A/C. This mod is already in place.The injectors look a lot like standard TBI injectors except that they'rejust enough smaller that standard ones won't fit. A GM-style TBI fuelpump comes with the kit that must be installed near the tank. A returnline is necessary (no problem on the Z) for the bleed-type pressure regulator.A large fuel filter that looks strangely like the one on 75 and above Zinjection systems is included.The electrical connectors are those first rate units that use the littlegreen silicone rubber gaskets on each pin (who makes these things, anyway?)All wires are contained in split corrugated tube. Cable ties are includedbut fuel line is not. Strange.I pretty much spent the evening going through the system, measuring every-thing (electrical and mechanical) and cleaning up the mechanicalfubars.
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I'd consider this to be essential to anyone buying such a kit.I'll post more details after the installation is complete. My impressionis at this point neutral.
The mechanical sloppiness is disappointing butnot totally unexpected. This seems to be the modus oprandi of anycompany that Colt Industries (the owner of Holly) buys. I hopeit works better than it looks. We'll see.JohnDate: Sun Aug 11 03:To: (z-car list)Subject:Well guys. The Pro-jection system is in!
Jialin@dogwood.botany.uga.edudrove over from Athens today and helped with the task (and we enjoyed someof my world famous Bar-B-Que to boot:-) A million thanks, Jialin.The short review: It works. Pretty well right out of the box too.The time constants for acceleration and cranking enrichment, idle mixand a few other things, being designed for a V-8, are a bit off forthe datsun.
The throttle bores are over 2' in diameter each which meansthat when the plates open, LOTS of air moves. With a small engine,a whole lot of acceleration is required to avoid bogging. With theholly carb, I had to add the high capacity accelerator pump, use the fastestcam and open the spray nozzles way up so I'm not surprised at thePro-jection system performance. The range of adjustments is just toonarrow. I had to lower the fuel pressure several PSI to permit themixture pots to have any effect. This made the acceleration enrichmenttoo small. I'm going to consult with Holly tech support on monday.
Ihope schematics are available. If not, we'll just spend a bit of timewith the scope and figure out where the mods need to be made. The controlbox is dirt-simple, consisting of a number of analog op-amp functiongenerators and some timing circuitry.The accelerator and starting enrichment (too much) are the only 2performance complaints I have.
The car mortally flys compared to thecarburator on the same manifold. Despite the engine only being a tired260, I could fairly easily pull away from Jialin's 280 when we weretesting tonite. One of the most gratifying improvements is theinstantaneous throttle response. Anyone who has a stock Z knows of thesluggish response to stabbing the throttle - especially on thefuel injected cars that try to keep the eco-nazis at bay even duringtransient conditions. I hate to use an overworked cliche but the throttledoes feel like a rheostat. More opening, more power.This system has cured a second problem. With the carb, the engine woulddetonate rather heavily under WOT conditions.
I now know that it wasprobably leaning out on the secondaries despite the high capacityfuel pump. Damn, I hate carburators.
With this unit, the engine pullsstrongly right up to 7000 rpm. Making a VERY rough estimate of mileageby watching how many miles I traveled before the gas gauge came off thefull peg, the mileage should be 20 mpg. I'll update the net as Igain more experience.
I REALLY look forward to the improved hotweather performance.All that good stuff said, I cannot recommend this kit to anyone who doesnot have a VERY well equipped shop. I had to remove a LOT of metal fromthe intake manifold to make it match the throttle bores. Holly tries tomake this thing be a one-part-fits-all. Unfortunately, one part fits allpoorly.
The mounting holes aligned up properly but the throttle boreswere greatly offset from where the 390 CFM 4 barrel was. I also had toadd helicoils to the intake manifold because the countersunk allenheadbolts supplied were too short to pass through and accept nuts. Minorproblem but a killer if you don't have helicoil tools.Another problem is that this unit is about 1/2' taller than the old 4-barrel.That means that my Moroso air cleaner won't fit. I'm going to have to do someserious jerry-rigging to solve this problem. I suspect that my answer isgoing to be to remove the intake manifold and mill it on a slight angle sothat the whole assembly sits lower in the engine bay.I think I mentioned it in the last update but another SERIOUS problemhas to do with Holly's quality control.
The throttle body was designedfor a stepping motor idle speed control though they do not support onenow. That means there is a LARGE passageway cast just below thethrottle plates. After the bores are bored, there is only a tiny sliverof metal between the bores and this passage.
Unfortunately theseslivers are necessary to seal the throttle plates at idle. My solutioninvolved die grinding the slivers down until what remained had at least 0.5 mmthickness and then backing them up with epoxee. A number of 1/16' holesdrilled about gave the epoxee something to bite into. A bit of pocket-knife machining broght the epoxee back into round where the throttleplates would seal.Other minor problems included a large hunk of casting flash keeping thethrottle from opening fully.
I had to trim that down and remove someextraneous tabs on the throttle lever in order that it would clear themanifold. None of these problems are fatal but they do require time andskill to remedy.Probably my biggest bitch is Holly's typically totally shitty documentation.It's written for the complete moron. It's a Heathkit-style stick-this-wirein-that-socket step by step that gives no explaination for what you're doingor why. The 'theory of operation' takes all of 2 paragraphs. No schematicis supplied. Crude pictorials with NO wire labels are all that's available.I've often wondered why high performance magazines tend to read the sameway they did 20 years ago with practically no technical content. Thiskind of crap is probably one reason.
The manufactures give the customerno information so the customer remains ignorant. Pedantic things likelabeling the acceleration enrichment adjustment pot 'accelerator pump'and the cold start enrichment 'choke' are really pissers. At least thehardware works.2 full 12 hour days. That's a lot of work for what is supposed to bea bolt-on replacement.This stuff is just begging for a microprocessor. That's probably goingto be the next step. I'm so interested in TBI because it is perfectfor my turbo motors.
The holly casting is pretty nice other than thequality problems. A little bit of bit-shuffling will reallyfix things up.
Meanwhile, I'm going to make the analog box work completelyright. I'll keep the list posted.JohnDate: Tue Aug 13 08:To: (z-car list)Subject:Another day of tuning is under my belt.
For a Z application, the systemhas one major problem - it is calibrated for a V-8. When I get the fuelpressure set so that the WOT pot will bring the mixture in, the idleis too rich. Clean the idle up and the acceleration enrichment is toolittle. I've settled on a setting where there is only a slight bogright off idle but very clean everywhere else. If Holly can't give mesome technical details on the control box, I'll just reverse engineer it.Today was a 90+ degree scorcher. It would have had the carburator droolingall over itself.
Not a problem from the injection system. What a pleasureto not have that worry!I've learned a couple of things about details.
One has to do with throttlegeometry. I was having a real problem with transitioning off idle.A major factor was the fact that the butterflys are so large in the Pro-jection system that they suffer a lot of vacuum resistance. This manifestsitself as added force needed to open the throttle that goes away oncethe throttle cracks a bit and dumps manifold vacuum.
The result can bea snap action that makes it almost impossible to ease into the gas.I knew all of this. What I did not realize was how sensitive this problemis to small throttle geometry errors. The throttle is actuated by ahome-made cable system. I developed it from a teflon coated Hondamotorcycle clutch cable. Very slick and very reliable with over 5 yearsof use on it. There is a spherical (Heim) joint on each end for pivots.Moving the cable from the old carb to the injector resulted in the idleposition being a bit past perpendicular. In other words, the throttlehad to move a bit before the lever axis and the cable formed a 90 degreeangle.
The lever at a 90 degree angle gives the most mechanical advantage.Herein lies the problem. With this geometry, the maximum mechanicaladvantage was realized just about the time the vacuum force was being broken.The lessened vacuum force combined with the favorable leverage made thethrottle leap across that point.Tonight I cut the braket and rewelded it so that the 90 degree angleoccures at idle. The best mechanical advantage is availablewhen it's needed the most - right off idle. By the time the vacuum dumphappens, the mechanical advantage is headed way down. The change couldnot have amounted to more than a quarter of an inch. What a difference itmade!
Not only does the throttle now open smooth, the apparent bog is gone.I believe what was happening was that the throttle snapped open enough todump vacuum but not enough to develop an acceleration enrichmentsignal. They obviously take a derivative of the throttle position voltageto do the acceleration enrichment and the small but fast movement probablydid not exceed the threshold.Even though is is a major improvement, I'm not satisfied.
I ordered agear blank from Boston Gear today. I'm going to machine a quadraticcam on it and use it to actuate the throttle according to a square lawresponse. This will produce a roughly linear air flow vs acceleratormovement response. This idea is not new - BMW did it with cams andlevers on my 635CSI. But I'm doing it simpler. A quadratic cam thatthe throttle cable pulls against is much simpler than the BMW rubegoldberg arrangement.Stay tuned. I'll be digging into the electronics in a couple of days.JohnDate: Wed Aug 14 07:To: (z-car list)Subject:You'll have to pardon my ignorance, but I am curious about whatyou started with and what you use the car for.What is the configuration of the Z engine.
Was it mostly stock?Do you have a bigger cam, lifters, headers? Apparently, it wascarberated before you started, but did you have a stock intake?This is a 75 280 2+2. Red, of course:-) This is a classic 'sleeper'portch' and 'Vette killer.
The current engine is from a 260Z and issimply a 'runner' while I repair the turbo motor. The 260 enginehad been converted from sidedraft carbs to a small Holly using aCartech kit. The Cartech kit consists of a manifold that bolts to the oldmanifolds in place of the old carbs.
Even the small 390CFM carb istoo big for this engine so it was probably never really right. Ahundred thousand miles of wear meant it was garbage.What is the configuration of the Z engine. Was it mostly stock?Do you have a bigger cam, lifters, headers?
Holley Pro Jection 502-1
Apparently, it wascarberated before you started, but did you have a stock intake?The engine has the mildest Racer brown cam, small headers, my custom3' exhaust and MSD ignition.Does the kit come with a new intake manifold with injector ports,or is it throttle body injection?This is a bolt-on replacement TBI system to replace holly carbs. It looksa lot like OEM TBI systems.Also, you might want to comment on what the difference is between thisinjection and the injection system that comes with the stock Z cars.Because the Holly system makes no attempt at smog compliance (though Itwill meet the idle sniff test), it is capable of better performancethan the stock system. The controller box contains adjustment pots foridle, midrange, WOT, acceleration enrichment and cold enrichment.Thus, you can (and must) tune the engine while you drive. The stock280Z system does several things better, most notably in the area ofpathological conditons such as stabbing the throttle at 1500 RPM in highgear.
At the present state of development the Pro-jection systemwill sputter. The stock system obviously had to maintain control inorder to meet smog specs.On the other hand, the Pro-jection throttle response is instantaneousand it makes significantly more power than stock if for no otherreason than the throttle bores look like sewer pipes and the mixturecan be tuned rich enough for power.I view the non-turbo motor as a development mule. My real interest isdesigning a digital control for the TBI for turbocharging. Theinjectors can flow enough fuel to feed a 400 hp turbo motor. The properengine for this Z is a Turbo Tom's based turbocharged engine thatmakes an estimated 400 hp at between 25 and 30 psi boost.
TT's kituses a Holly, thus the interest in bolt-on replacements. TBIshave some real advantages for high boost turbomotors. The coolingeffect of the gas being injected upstream of the turbo helpscontrol detonation. The mixing action of the turbine obviates any advantagea port injection system might have.If the non-turbocharged engine works out as well as it looks like it will,I may make some manifolds and offer a kit.
The CarTech jerryrig is reallypoor. It would be substantially cheaper than port injection systems such asthe Haltech.
I'm also going to try to collaborate with Turbo Tom to offer anelectronically controlled turbo kit. I say 'try' because Tom is somewhatdifficult to work with and is afraid of electronics.
Nontheless I havehis interest. He has gone to the trouble of having intake and exhaustmanifolds cast to fit a turbocharger and so has the slickest Z kit available.Speaking of Haltech, I today initiated becomming a dealer for them.Anyone interested?Is this a street machine or are you breeding it for racing? Anyguesses on how much power increase you have gained over the stockengine?As I said above, it's a street machine designed to slay yuppy playtoys:-)The absolute very best ones are the 928 drivers.
The Portch isinvariably a manhood substitute and it almost drives 'em to theedge of suicide to have an at this point somewhat ratty looking oldZ blow 'em away. My best run to date has been 155 on the radar gun at10 psi of boost. Unfortunately on that same run the waterinjection system failed and I chipped a piston which is why the engine is onthe stand instead of in the car. I'm going to have to break200 mph to get the occasional Calloway 'Vette. My calculationsindicate that 400 hp is going to be kinda marginal so I mayhave to go up a bit on power.
My limitingfactor has been pistons. I'm using Datsun racing cast pistons. Forgedpistons are getting hard to get, though a conversation today withWiesco was promising. I may have to pay custom charges but so it goes.BTW, I spent the entire day on the phone with performance electronicsvendors.
I'll have some real goodies to add to the resource listas soon as I get time to key it in.Stay tuned.JohnDate: Fri Aug 30 22:To: (z-car list)Subject:Yoo Hoo, anybody out there? The silence on this list is deafening:-)Whatsamatter, everybody too busy driving to type?Anyway, now for a fuel injection update.
I've had the Holly Pro-jectionsystem installed for about 3 weeks now and have it in a useable state.My 3 week impressions are that it basically works, though I consider itan incomplete job. It badly needs an air temperature sensor. I have totweak the mixture when the air temp changes significantly. The othermajor problem regards the inability to lean the power range out enoughand the inability to get enough acceleration enrichment. Both aresymptoms of the unit being designed for a larger engine. It.REALLY.needs either an airflow sensor or a manifold vacuum sensor.Throttle position alone really is not enough input.
Finally, itsstartup algorithm, which involves shooting a rather massive quantity offuel unrelated in rate to cranking RPMs, easily floods the engine. Ithas an 'anti-flood' mode that is invoked when the throttle is heldwide open.
I've found that if I press the throttle wide open halfa second after hitting 'start', the engine fires real clean.Mechanically, the excessive vacuum force on the throttle platesthat I mentioned before had become terminally annoying. I've orderda gear blank from which I'm going to machine a square root throttlepulley to solve the problem.Other than that, I like the system. This little 260 engine makesgobs of power, much more than a 280 and it has excellent throttleresponse. Mileage is less than I'd hoped for but I blame this onthe too rich WOT and the lack of richness on acceleration which meansmore throttle is needed to get power. It is definitely not a set-it-and-forget-it system but it DOES beat the holly carb.
With a bit morework it will be a very good system.I did find out that the black box is made by MSD ignitions. I have totallyfailed in my attempts to reach Holly for technical information. Theirphone numbers are always busy.
Even a couple of hours of demon dialingdid not get me through. I'm going to be contacting MSD to see if they'llsupply some information.As I mentioned before, my main interest is building a digital controllerfor this unit. It looks like the task will be fairly easy. I havea fancy digital storage scope on order and when it gets here, the reverseengineering will begin in earnest:-)BTW, I just got a HUGE package from HKS.
Gawd what a collection ofgoodies. I've also found an inexpensive source ofintercoolers if anyone else is interested in turbocharging.JohnFrom:X-Source: The Hotrod Mailing listDate: Apr 1992Subject: Re: FIdid i hear you mention a while ago that your pro-jection 2 is on asix? Perhaps thats why it floods the thing- isn't it meant for asmall eight? My 350 needs all the fuel it can get on cold starts- ihave never been able to flood it. I could see the pro-jection 4 beingtoo much for anything where CID.Sputter.!
Whathehell are they doing, making their chips by hand?If I'm lucky and have the time, I'll have my digital controller prototypeon my Projection in 2 weeks. Three or 4 weeks for the snazzy userGreat! What about the rest of us:-)!!!!The whole purpose of this exercize is a system anyone can build. Thatimplies a series of articles in the mag:-) JGDWhile I'm talking about the Projection, I flowed the injectors lastnight. Each injector flows 89 lbs/hr on gasoline at 23 psi pressure.Do you run with the pressure this high?Apparently.
I just twiddled the pressure as another tuning adjustmentuntil I got decent throttle response with the tuning pots off their stops.I'd never measured the pressure before. That's what the regulatorregulated at on the bench. JGDLooks like those big Mazda injectors I reported on earlier earlierwould be good replacements.
Last time I checked, Holly wants almostWould you use the mazda injectors in the throttlebody? I'd drill the manifold under the throttle body and install them there.The Z will be perfect for that application since the original manifoldwas set up for two SU carbs. JGDI took a look at the intake manifold (since it is off of the car).The injectors spray onto what looks like a plastic disk with holes drilledin it.
The disk is in the center of the intake runner.Any idea what this is? If I remember correctly the pictures John sentme of the injectors firing, was a nice spray??LaterRobgallant@oasys.dt.navy.mil.